Covenant College Statement on Soulforce Equality Ride

Will Ted Haggard be along for the Ride this year? I've been trying to get in touch with him...

I wonder what people who are both gay (openly or not) and Covenant alumni think about this?

I just went to a forum at Covenant about this whole deal. It was really a lot better than I expected; Nielson basically outlined what was in that letter, but opened the forum with the question "How can we lovingly accept them and treat them as Christ would but also remember our mission?" instead of "Should we not allow them to come because they didn't agree with our proposal?" (as that letter seems to imply). The former question is much more appropriate, especially since the riders have made it clear that they are coming whether Covenant likes it or not.

I'm not sure why that letter mentions the possibility of meeting off-campus with the group, as I got a wholly different impression of the situation at the forum. Basically they *will* come on campus with 'free reign' (ability to roam I guess), it's just a matter of how forceful everything has to get. Personally I'd find it hilarious to see Wallace Anderson wrestling with a Rider on the chapel lawn.

I don't think anything like this has ever happened to Covenant, and I think it's an awesome chance to truly show Christ's love (and others seem to think the same). One girl at the forum stated it perfectly though, "I'm worried that the Covenant community isn't going to receive them with the kind of love that should be shown."

I'm mostly concerned with their terrible branding, identity, and website. They need to fire their web team.

I'm way off topic.

Two years since being out of the dream world of Chattanooga and this is completely unfathomable to me and that Ryan Davidson would suggest arresting Covenant students who participate is beyond insane.

It kind of makes me embarrassed to be a Christian, kind of the way those Little Geneva fools did.

Hey Josiah, what does the evangelical church think of homosexuality? Because I don't think they've made their message clear.

Why is it that the people who don't believe in Jesus are way better at being compassionate than the ones who do?

Christians are so full of shit sometimes it's hard to not sleep in on Sunday mornings.

WHY does Covenant need to force these people to play by their rules? When did Christianity become about forcing the outsiders to give in to our terms if they want a dialogue?

Why is it that the only places that this is normal are the little suburban pockets like Chattanooga that are basically cut off from culture around them.

One of my friends teaches at an evangelical liberal arts school here in the heart of Seattle and dialogues like this are allowed all the time.

John: Umm. Don't know where you got the idea that I had suggested arresting Covenant students. Because I didn't. Just clearing that up.

This isn't about dialog. This isn't about discussion. This isn't about compassion. This is about PR and property rights.

"We ask that you join us in prayer as we seek wisdom to handle this situation responsibly and in a Christ- like manner. We are a community that teaches students what it means to be Christian servant-leaders. This is an opportunity for us to live that out."

i can respect that.

Ryan,

You're right that this is about PR and property rights, not compassion. Unfortunately, in this setting PR trumps the law. Once the whole Rosa Parks nostalgia confusion passed and the members of Soulforce Equality realized that, given that everyone on the bus is homosexual, SOMEONE on the team would have to sit in the back and there was no virtue in objecting to this, I'm sure the entire ride was devoted to praying that someone, anyone, would have them arrested. They're annoying, and, worse than that, boring, but sometimes enforcing one's legal rights is more costly than allowing them to be violated.

Micah, do you have any leads on how we might find these non-"openly gay" alums? Are the "furtively gay" perhaps distinguished by an unusually florid prose style?

Julian: yeah, there's definitely a cost-benefit analysis to be done, but I figure that the college is going to be embarrassed one way or the other. If you're going to get in trouble, let's at least have the consolation of getting them in trouble too. Heck, if the college seeks preemptive injunctive relief which the tour violates, we could pretty easily bankrupt the whole thing. Even a $50,000 judgment, a paltry sum for this sort of thing, would probably be a significant chunk of their annual budget. That, to me, sounds like it'd be worth the PR hit.

I would also point out again that looking bad to the people who like the group will probably make us look good to people who actually want to go to Covenant.

I'm honestly pretty surprised and impressed that Covenant was willing to negotiate the terms of dialogue with them. I would have expected outright rejection. I think Covenant is absolutely doing what they should in this situation -encouraging love and tolerance and preparing the student body to handle the situation (which I think will be great for them) without backing down on their principles or letting Equality Ride bully them. I think Ryan up there is dead on.

To those who want to have an intelligent discussion about this, if you believe such is possible, I would suggest becoming more informed about what exactly is fueling this battle of ideologies, rather than assuming that being on the right side automatically equips you to discern the nature of the wrong.

This continues to be a puzzling issue to me, but I could recommend a good place to start in terms of understanding the origins and nature of the gay rights movement. A book called "Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far" which is written by a psychoanalist, C. W. Socarides. His psychoanalitc approach to the causes and cures of homosexuality is the focus of much of the book, but I found that to be less helpful than his incites into the politics behind the gay rights movement in his chapters on "History" and "Ideology." Socarides is not a Christian, but he seeks to expose the motives of gay activists in order to show that it is not helping but hurting the homosexual community.

But don't take my word for it. And also, don't stop there! There is no single book that can answer all questions on the matter, and the more you find out, the more questions you'll most likely have. But I'd like to see more productive discussion based on informed opinions among the Covenant community and alumni as we pray for God's guidence here.

I don't know, Julian...perhaps gay Covenant alums will storm up the mountain on the backs of unicorns, and insist on establishing a PFLAG chapter right there on campus. That would be kind of impressive. I might drive up to watch. I know that's not much of a lead, but it's all I've got. Regardless, this is probably going to be the first time many of those kids will have seen a real, live gay person up close. I hope Phil Codington blogs about it.

as best as i can remember, this is one of the first times since i entered covenant five years ago that someone has come up to campus who held views that weren't significantly overlapping with standard pca doctrines and opinions, and furthermore run against some of the views that pca people tend to be most passionate about. i think it's good, real good, that "off the mountain" people are going to be on campus.

in my estimation, covenant should be inviting the likes of soulforce up to campus. just reading about them in a book or hearing about them in a lecture doesn't quite provide the sort of "cultural engagement" that always get talked about. of course, then again, some people in the pca absolutely freaked out when we had frank and carolyn james up on campus two years ago, mainly because the james have at points hung out with people who think it's ok to ordain women (?!?!!?). so i think that nielsen, rowe, and voyles are trying to make sure that the same folks don't get on their backs.

also, i think that james ward should be up on campus with his cov col jazz band when they arrive, challenging soulforce to a battle of the bands. soulforce has to have a band, right? the winner gets to keep the name "soulforce," the loser gets to go home. i'm pretty sure jdubs would be up for it.

Not only their marketing campaign, they need to revise where their political energy is spent. This has very little to do with Covenant, and everything to do with federal funding.

Ryan, as you can doubtless tell, I find this civil rights burlesque as adolescent and offensive as you do. But much as I'd love to see Soulforce Equality bankrupted, I think that a) the expense and inconvenience of obtaining such a judgment would far outweigh its satisfactions and b) you underestimate the media fracas such a tactic would create. It'd be the best story to come from the Christian south since the BJU interracial dating ban, with the added charm of the natural drama created by a court case. On a slow news day, it'd go national.

And could everyone refrain from using the terms "dialogue," "gay community," and "openly gay" for the rest of this discussion? The cant terminology quotient has already been exhausted with all this chatter about "tolerance" and "understanding."

j. ward vs. soulforce.

paging bill colrus. bill colrus to lookout.

davidm: I'd be interested in hearing more on the federal funding angle.

Julian - I don't think I can refrain. Sorry.

Gillikin, a battle of the bands is a brilliant idea. Perhaps a Pet Shop Boys cover competition? Or maybe the admissions department could work at creating a Studio 54 vibe in the Great Hall and challenge them to a dance-off. Presbyterian sexuality could be represented by a glammed up Phil Codington - I'm thinking Bowie circa Aladdin Sane. Now THAT's something that would spur a spike in alum donations.

OK, weird...one of my comments disappeared. I could have sworn it was there earlier. It basically had to do with not pitting justice against compassion...in reference to Ryan's quote about this not being about compassion but about the law.

But anyway, I want to go on record and say that I have never said in any of my posts about this subject so far that I think that Covenant has mishandled this situation. I get the impression that they have been weighing things dligently and seriously and I would agree with Ryan that it may very well be the right thing in the end to refuse them on campus if the group intends to violate Covenant's legal rights.

However, what I have been trying to provoke is a discussion about the "attitude" we should be having toward these people. For some reason Francis Schaeffer keeps coming to mind. That man had an incredible, unbounding heart for sinners in need of grace. It guided and directed what he did and how he dialogued with others. I hope that we would have the same kind of compassion, that first and foremost, our hearts would be predisposed to love these people, to hear these people, to pray for these people, to respect these people. What we shouldnt do is merely toss them off as annoying and immediately proceed to a discussion of cost benefits analysis.

I have an idea:

What if Covenant was to invite another organization to stop by campus at the same time. They don't even have to be related. As long as they have at least as big a bus, as gaudy a PR campaign, as loud a P.A. system, etc.

Like, say, Girls Gone Wild. Or the Oscar Meyer Wiener Mobile. Or that big Royal Carribbean faux cruise ship/theatre thing that they use to show promotional videos.

I don't know what, exactly, it would achieve, but it would be just about the funniest thing ever.

There's a part of me that agrees with Totten, and wants to chastise the whole covenant community for being so sheltered from the real world. But at the same time, I recognize that places like NYC, portland, and Seattle, are also sheltered in different ways. I mean, I can't expect an 18 suburban kid to miraculously unshelter himself, anymore than a seattle gay guy can "ungay" himself.

But that's why these sorts of juxtapositions are valuable for both parties. The visit should be looked at as an opportunity.

That being said, the soulforce folks' whole stunt is based on the hope that we will react in an inflammatory way (calling the cops, kicking them out, vandalizing their bus, etc, etc). That's why it makes such a good publicity stunt.

I think it is juvenile and disrespectful that they did not accept the college's good-faith invitation to visit with a schedule of activities; and i think it is on this point that the college should take the moral high ground.

I would love to see Neil B. Neilson stand up with a microphone in front of soulforce and the student body, and warmly welcome them and talk about how covenant always welcomes and open dialogue, etc, etc, and then . . . openly chastise them for the lack of respect in working with the institution to accomodate them.

I think it's helpful to find some sort of common denominator. And since the teachings of the bible are obviously not embraced by both parties, I think covenant should appeal to the left's mantra of "cooperation" and "respect" and flaunt in their faces how pathetically inconsistent they are soulfource's behavior. Neil should also mention that Martin Luther King and leaders of the civil right's movement never enjoyed the benefits of such hospitality from conservative institutions, and he would've been more respectful.

Most private schools receive federal assistance to keep tuition lower. In addition, students at these schools are eligible for Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (which are both Federal programs) just like a public school. The argument is that these schools can't discriminate against sexual orientation b/c it receives money from the govt. (and is in some ways, public).

Pell Grants & Stafford Loans are given to anyone eligible b/c they're awarded by the govt. Students aren't discriminated against in any way to my knowledge. On the federal funding side, there are provisions in place that allow schools to setup "moral codes" for students within certain guidelines. (I'm no expert on the subject, however.) But I know for a fact that they don't receive as much money as a public school as a result.

Well said Todd. I can't remember a time where Christ had to run the numbers (or perform a CBA) to see if it was worth engaging with the people around him. If anyone could have though, it was him. I mean, he was Jesus...he was sinless...he was perfect. And we're so far from perfection, but it's painful to read some of the comments above and realize that some of you just simply don't get it. Life is a Gospel issue, and it's absurd to think or write or say that bankrupting an organization is the best thing to do, or that calling the cops makes any sort of sense. Ryan, when, on your own blog, you wrote "actually, the bus will be showing up at Notre Dame at month before they do at Covenant. This actually doesn't bother me much, because it means that I won't have to go out of my way to spit on them. I shall begin treating them with respect as soon as they start acting in ways worthy of it" you missed the Gospel. As sinners ourselves, we're not in a postion to condem anyone...but we can relate to their fallen condition. Do you seriously want to spit on these folks? What the hell would make you write that? Oh yeah, you're a sinner...just like me...just like them. And what if God waited to love us until we started acting worthy of His love? It would never happen, would it? But when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. God save us.

Okay, bill's idea about inviting the oscar-meyer-weiner-mobile is the funniest thing i've ever heard. . .

i seriously think covenant should do that. Just invite as many buses to campus that day that prominently display fallic and/or vaginal symbolism as possible.

that would definitely give the media something surprising to talk about: christians with a sense of humor. I mean, here in nyc the gay pride parade floats huge balloons of the same imagery with the names "bush" and "dick" on them.

Does Soulforce Equality Ride not realize that Covenant already has everything they want? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it, but isn't it Drag and Butts? Mebbe it's the unicorn that's missing; would they settle for a pony?

This is why I am not Christian. You people are hateful.

What would Jesus do in this situation? I doubt he would kick out the fags or spit on them. Do you think that your sin is somehow less offensive to your god than the sin of the Soulforce folks? Do you think that your perfect Christ would've refused a dialogue with these people because of their sin? No. He would have engaged them in a dialogue with them because of their sin. And he would have showed them love, compassion, and understanding. The same way he did with Zacchaeus and countless others. At least that is what your "Holy Book" says.

And what do you do -- you shit all over the scripture you claim to hold in such high regard, and cherry pick Old Testament scripures to justify your bigotry, hatred, and self-righteousness.

Good job Covenant folks! What an example for the rest of us. Too bad we all can't be filled to the brim with Christ's love the way you are.

How would we ever look like compassionate Christians if we didn't have Ryan?

My point is this: Christians can look very good giving up their rights, turning the other cheek, dolling out compassion. But none of that would really matter if there weren't real rights we were foregoing.

I am more sympathetic to the "let's have em on campus and show em some lovin'" view (Todd, I loved your blog post on the subject). Ryan: I really have no idea what the Soulforce riders are like, but even if they *are* obnoxious brats, we can still shovel some coals on their head. That's justice. But it's achieved through the venues of mercy.

I find obnoxious people obnoxious whether they are homosexual or whether they are sitting next to me in the pew. But I don't spit on the benchwarmer, so I won't spit on the bus rider.

And Isaac: it's "phallic."

dear anonymous:

speaking of cherry-picking, please don't pick out the one or two individuals who speak in an inflammatory way, and characterize everyone that way.

speaking of which, why are you speaking in such an inflammatory way?

and why be anonymous? are you afraid of some sort of persecution, or is it just posturing to take the moral high ground? are we supposed to hear your words as the mysterious voice through the office intercom?

lighten up.

I remain anonymous so Covenant students and alumni won't spit on me. Thanks.

dear anonymous:
ryan never spit on anyone in his life, and besides, you should be posting that on ryan's blog anyway, not this one.

dear funke:
per my spelling error . . . lighten up.

christians have no sense of humor.

the most well founded accusation ever laid against christians was neitzsche when he said "christians are people with no joy"

sad statement indeed.

I'll admit my rhetorical overstatements. Isn't the first time, won't be the last. I intended to communicate my general contempt for what is, after all, a contemptible enterprise.

I do agree that on a practical level, getting them arrested is probably a bad idea. It's perfectly within Covenant's rights to do so, but yeah, that'd probably be bad for the school. But that doesn't mean we have to take them seriously.

I'm no Covenant alum, but I am a Christian. And I don't think the general consensus is that those in this discussion hate SoulForce or homosexuals. We have made fun of their name because it sucks and we have made fun of their website because it sucks too. And there has been discussion about the group not having its priorities in check - which is a valid argument.

If you want to read in between the lines with your own pre-conceived notions of Christian bigotry, that is your right. But most of us have remained fairly level-headed about this. There has been a lot of support for the "give them a forum" approach. But if they refuse (as they have) and demand full access on private property, they are clearly overstepping their bounds.

You clearly have a bone to pick and have chosen a forum where several Christians are trying their best to weigh their personal standards against compassion and fairness. If we are "hateful" or "self-righteous" for doing so, then we can't win in your eyes. Ironically, most of the people in this discussion are more open-minded than your run-of-the-mill evangelical Christian, but you choose to ignore that very obvious fact. Since we are open-minded individuals, feel free to voice your dissent, but at least read what we're writing.

Isaac, you're right. Just because we have been called to be Christ-like in our dealings with others, doesn't mean we have to be foolish in those dealings. Scripture advises that we be "wise in the way [we] act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity." Here is a great opportunity, and I think Covenant is striving to be wise in its interaction with this group.
I have issue with Soulforce's insistence on comparing themselves to civil rights activists of the 50's and 60's. The "oppression" that homosexuals "endure" is nothing compared to the outright racism and bigotry of the 50's 60's and 70's, and for Soulforce to make that comparison trivializes the achievements that so many civil rights leaders fought to achieve. I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone in the gay community getting attacked by police dogs or sprayed with firehoses lately for their peaceful demonstrations.

I had to take a poke at you, cause really, if you are going to exercise your sweet psychoanalytic skills, get it right. And I find *that* hilarious.

Mike, your comment wins. Also, Ted Haggard would like to get in touch with you too.

what i find hilarious is that you choose to say "taking a poke" at my comment on phallic imagery.

I still can't get past the name "Soulforce."
It's just killing me.

I mean, why is there not a group of old-school, middle-aged R&B singers in superhero garb using the Soulforce name to travel the country and spread the message of the power of -- SLOW JAMS?

Why? WHY?!!?

These are the questions that keep me from falling asleep at night...

Isaac -

I've thoroughly probed these comments and can't find anything funny. In fact, this thread seems pretty hard-up for laughs of any sort. This kind of thing has to be addressed firmly, especially in light of the mounting opposition.

i think bill colrus is funny.

Isaac, have a cigar.

You win a prize.

"But you acted like you *didn't* know it was a joke...."

Micah: hopefully that mounting opposition will reach its climax and peter out before it gets out of hand. So to speak.

funke:
as a christian, i have no frame of reference for nuance or wordplay in humor.

i prefer pictures of cats with either bible verses or "i'm having a bad hair day" captions.

getting back on message:
i really don't see why it has to be a big deal that these folks are coming for a visit. On a very serious level, it's very indicative of the fortress mentality at Covenant; and as much as i do think covenant is a better-than-average christian institution, it is this fundamental "christian bubble" scenario that does cause covenant to share a lot of commonality with all the other schools on the soulforce calendar.

It would be really exciting to see covenant set itself apart, and I hope against hope that the administration will consider that.

Zing!

in my estimation - if carpenter's tools was allowed free reign on the covenant college campus these soul force folks should be granted the same privelege. because in my mind a group of people passing out some pamphlets is not nearly as offensive as an interpretive dance re-inacting the crucifixion set to bonnie tyler's total eclipse of the heart. i'm just saying.

Haha. You said "tools".

Well, if Carpenter's Tools is asked back, I think it would only be appropriate for Don Graham (wearing that leather vest of his) to speak at chapel. Of course, he would need to re-tell the story of Samson, complete with his description of the strong man's big oily biceps and thick sculpted thighs.

Don't be a Fool! Be A Tool!

Religiosity is the enemy of humor Funke, not that I think you're being faux-pious or anything.

I'd like to point out that one can find problems with the Equality Ride visit without having any complaints/concerns/quibbles with homosexuality. Equality Ride does not equal homosexual rights.

I'm very much a fan of a liberal democracy and all that it entails, regardless of whether or not I "agree" with the choices certain people make within that free society.

I'm glad Equality Ride is coming to Covenant; I just wish they'd have been a little bit more diplomatic & collaborative with the administration.

Do you like the majesty of Earth, Wind and Fire?
The straight-up pimpin' of Issac Hayes?
Are you in the mood for love like Barry White?

Well, hustle up the mountain, my brothers and sisters...

Cross Country Concerts presents...

Soulforce!

Live at a very small Presbyterian liberal arts college on a mountain that several people might have actually heard of!

Covenant College!

Join Gerald, Robert, Antwan, George, and Leon as lay it down -- ooooooooold schoooooooool!

That's right, Soulforce!

Live!

Covenant College!

No, this is not the bus full of gays!

Be there!

Soulforce is gay.

That clip reminded me of each year's finale of American Idol:

"Cue the generic gospel choir!"

With the possible exception of one anonymous chap, I think we all can agree that this has been a tremendous conversation. We've had the power of slow jams, the proliferation of double entendres, and at least one Rosa Parks reference. I don't think this could have gone better.

But how have we been ignoring this?

"I'm worried that the Covenant community isn't going to receive them with the kind of love that should be shown."

I don't think it's going to be a problem at all Mesh, have you forgotten how the College embraced Peter Gay?

The love you make is inversely proportionate to the love you take.

Look it up.

Soulforce!

Physicalpants (or Micah?): Please tell me that Carpenter's Tools crucifixion did not fucking happen.

Ryan:

First of all I think you might be gay.

Why? Because of how over the top and proud of it you are. Sounds really gay to me.

"I'll admit my rhetorical overstatements. Isn't the first time, won't be the last." You go girl!

Why is it okay for you exaggerate to make a point and not okay for the gay kids to go a bit over the top to make a point?

Probably cause you are one of them.

Now I'm am exaggerating to make a point. Everyone is equal. But you might actually be gay I don't know.

John, no need to be puerile (unless, of course, it's funny). And no, you're not actually making a point, you're talking wacky. That is unless you think "gays" are "over the top" and "proud of it." The diff. 'tween Ryan and The Equality Ride project (which is what we're talking about, not "gays" as a general category) is that Ryan is absolutely not pretentious: he's dead serious and completely aware of the points he's making (even the retractions).

Ryan has only ever loved one man, and that's me. I've been the envy of all the women in his life.

John: Umm.

Josiah: And most of the men too.

As far as I understand the theory of nonviolent resistance, it fails if it's ignored. I mean, the civil rights movement and Gandhi succeeded because they were opposed, and opposed violently, and it made the opposers look bad in the end. If the Soulforce people came up to Covenant and were allowed to be as loud and obnoxious as they wanted, but were totally ignored while doing so, then they would fail to accomplish their purpose. Why not let them come in their bus, let them wander around for a while, and just let whatever is in their hearts be exposed - and make sure to have people recording them, secretly, in case they did anything illegal (beyond the trespassing)? Have the college release a press statement saying, "We're letting these people come to the campus, despite that they refused our good-faith offer of dialogue and despite that we have the right to keep them off. We are doing this because we, too, have the courage of our convictions, and believe that Christian love cannot be outshouted by the advocates of 'tolerance'." That I believe would be both the loving and the pragmatically best thing to do.

I wonder how this makes gay students at Covenant feel? But I suppose one might say that as a Christian I should feel more concerned with theological correctness than people's feelings.

I don't think that there even needs to be a conflict or a resistance. But I guess I go to one of the only PCA Churches in America that welcome gays every Sunday.

Josiah, I know this seems like typical Totten banter but until getting internet and frequenting Chattablogs again a few months ago, I hadn't had my blood pressure this high for two years maybe. I think it's just something about either Chattanooga or Christians or Christians From Chattanooga/Covenant (probably that one) that drives me insane. It's like we're from different planets and I'm on the planet the sane people are on.

Just let people come and hand out as many pamplets and yell through megaphones and do whatever they want. If they were really confident in their theology and tradition, this wouldn't seem that bad.

John, I think you're getting ticked off because you've assumed you're talking (in this particular discussion) with those people who aren't sane.

If you calm the hell down, read my initial post, and read 99% of the comments in this thread, every single person here has affirm the rightness or goodness or whatever of Equality Ride coming to Covenant, even if they disagree with their mission & message, which is hardly the type of thing one of those "bad-guy" and fundamentalist and non-compassionate Christians would do, no?

If people had negative things to say about the Equality Ride project (and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that they're doing something negative, right?) those were centered around the facts that a. their name etc. is lame regardless of your religious inclinations b. their project is purposely obnoxious and seeking conflict.

Does that make sense? Those are two very level-headed unbiased substantive complaints one can have about Equality Ride that doesn't have anything to do with your religious perspective or fundamentalism or being un-compassionate.

My entire point is that you're waging a war against an "enemy" that doesn't exist, and you look pretty silly doing so.

Did Donnie Davies go to Covenant?

No Man is an Island (Tommy, right?) -

Carpenters Tools did the Eclipse of the Heart crucifixion performance in 1998/99. It was pretty, um, surprising. I can't remember why, but Jade and I, and I think Fernando made t-shirts for that which said things like "I want to be a Tool." So mature. Physicalpants is Chris Smith.

I wasn't really trying to verify it (I believe Chris), so much as I was trying to comment on the situation at a school I did not attend by saying the word "fucking." So mature.

Anyway, Soulforce apparently visited my alma mater, California Baptist University, almost a year ago. The administration tried tactics similar to what Covenant is trying to do, but Soulforce kept having conversations with people on campus (damn them!). Campus police were called, and then called off, when it became clear that everyone was being nice. Soulforce was intrusive, but not disruptive.

Well, I disagree Josiah. Not to me looking silly. There are a lot of ways that I don't fit in with Chattanooga and I'm sure I look silly to a lot of people there.

Sorry if I pissed you off.

I just don't see Covenant's actions as displaying the love of Christ. Jesus never made anyone sign on any dotted line. I think somebody in the Martin family once said that.

And I think to call Equality Ride 'purposely obnoxious' but to defend Ryan Davidson's comments as being sincere is a huge hypocracy.

P.S. Although I'm very aprehensive about, I'm going to be in Chattanooga in one month. We should hang out. You should return my emails or we can just talk about it when I get there.

John, I don't see how you can condemn *an entire city* for intolerance. It's not an institution - there's no official policy statement of Chattanooga saying "We hate gays." And why would you be apprehensive about visiting the city? I think the problem lies with you, and with things in your past, (I don't know you so I don't know what exactly) than with Chattanooga as such.

John, your point/question that Ryan is/may be gay was what I said was "silly". This isn't a conversation about you and your amazing technicolor progressive perspective/lifestyle that you've developed in Seattle.

Jesus wasn't running a college institution.

I didn't say Ryan's comments were sincere.

My statement was not a hypocrisy (on the grounds you seem to imply) because it wasn't a defense, it was a contrast.

John: regarding your ill-considered comments, I have only this to say. Since your argument has degenerated to the point that calling me names is the best you can do, I don't feel compelled to say anything else.

Josiah,

I'm sorry. You didn't excuse him for being "sincere". You excused him for being "dead serious and completely aware of the points he's making". I still think its hypocritical.

As for my "amazing technicolor progressive perspective/lifestyle"- I don't think it would be possible without the intense bitterness I feel about the way Christians in the South treat others. I'm not alone in that so don't make it sound crazy. I had a conversatioin with my pastor this morning (PCA), who is from Chattanooga as well about how people there don't realize how different the rest of the world is. I thought this might ring true with you as someone who grew up on the West coast and might know how this attitude doesn't really fly with the rest of the country or the rest of the Church.

Next- Jesus should be running Covenant.

Ryan- If I am going to go on sites like Little Geneva and call them out for being a racist I should probably call you out on being a homophobe and a biggot as well. Let me point out that Josiah agreed with me when I assumed the racists at Little Geneva were so violently against interracial marriage because they secretly loved it. So I also think that people who don't want gays on their campus or their former campus might be a little bit gay too.

But I'm probably not in the best state to be talking about this. I just hung out with three gay dudes who made my ability to love my neighbor as well as anything I've read here look like shit- so I'm gonna sulk about it for a while and Josiah I'll talk to you about it next time I see you.

John, explain to me how pointing a difference between Ryan and Equality Ride somehow constitutes an excuse? It doesn't. And even if it was, it's not hypocritical because we're no longer talking about sincerity.

No John, I never agreed with you on your Little Geneva psychoanalysis. It was wildly amusing.

Sure John, it'd be great if Jesus ran Covenant, unfortch the rest of the world didn't get the memo you obviously received wherein Jesus said "This is what I'd do if Equality Ride came to Covenant and I was running the show." If you'd be so kind as to share it with us and Covenant, you could save a lot of people a lot of struggling to figure out the right thing to do.

man, this thing is HOTT!!!

p.s. the worst part about an argument like this is how long it's gone on. why? because now everyone is too deeply entrenched in his/her idea(l)s and won't give any ground.

in other words, even if john breaks out that document, it's doubtful anyone will believe him. especially if it disappears to join those golden tablets that joseph smith found.

I realize this horse is well dead and beaten. But I thought I'd add my 2 cents, which when converted into a publicly traded currency is worth -20 US dollars.

Soulforce, what a cool name, though I think it has little connection with their purpose. To me it sounds like one of the Power Ranger's Powers:" I Call upon my SOUL FORCE, ITS MORPHIN TIME: TYRANASAURUS REX!"

Totten Makes me laugh and scratch my head at the same time, if I could only get someone to scratch my back.

Ryan's argumental strategy seems to be thus: always bring an A-bombs to knife fight. I tend to think you win more flies with sugar and more pigs with feeces. Not sure what I'm getting at there.

But I wonder how should covenant will respond to Soulforce, here are my predictions:

catacombs will dress very flamboyantly perhaps in dresses and maybe even set up a same sex kissing booth in front of chapel with all proceeds going to Soulforce. Then invite the soulforce down to the hall for some naked bible study.

Blackwatch should all wear kilts regimental style and hold hands while walking from class to class.

Ghetto should streak across campus with bags over there heads.

This generally seems to be the normal everday sort of thing and maybe if Soulforce sees all this they'll realize covenant's not so close minded as they thoguht

man... i need to proof read stuff before i post it. sorry bout that, i'm not entirely iliterate... just a little

Man, you guys play hardball. Why aren't you over commenting on the alumni site where we have a bleeding heart liberal and a UCC pastor both trying to subvert conservative theological truths?

I am not a bigot. I think sticking your penis in somebody else's behind a trifle unpalatable, but heteros do that and worse too. I have gay friends, who are not just tokens of my affection. I also work in the European Parliament and go to a pomo-gay-loveing-community-centred-"Amazing-technicoloured-progressive-church" and no its not PCA, IPC or any affiliation thereof. I am an Alum of Covenant and come from a progressive continent.

I would like to talk about some things going on in the United Kingdom as they might shed light on the broader debate of issues such as the "tolerant" one and other words Julian wanted to ban from the discussion, rightfully.

Recently the lower house of the parliament in Britain passed a law on sexual discrimination legislation, which makes it illegal for anybody to deny services or jobs to homosexuals. This would include services such as foster care, adoption but also offering a room for the night at a small private boarding house at the beach. Now being fair to homosexuals is good. I think any man, woman or child should deserve to be served in a manner that is equal to any other, however the problem arises when you force people who believe (truthfully, rationally, or otherwise) that they will be committing a sin before their chosen deity by enabling others to sin without consequence. Where is the tolerance of the homosexual lobby, when it was pushing for the little old lady who runs a beach boarding house (to be fair one might not even want to stay in it anyway) to put up a couple who would then violate her conscience and perhaps even her mild old manner by banging away through the night? One would hope that all other visitors who would engage in such banging to be married... of course...

The other case that is of importance and bares a bit more similarity to the farce predicament concerns university clubs. In the UK clubs are funded through the student unions. These have various subdivisions. One of these is usually the inevitable RUF style Christian club that meets weekly and "encourages" each other. Now they have come under attack by the gay lobby and also by most liberal minded (in name only) presidents and vice-presidents of the student unions. These groups have banned the Christian Unions existence in any formal form, cut funding and disallowed the use of university rooms for meetings (who would want to meet their anyway, if you can go to a good pub) until the Christian Union allows openly homosexual men and women to be on the leadership of the Union. If you are found wanting in other areas of life you are also shunned from leadership... But that is nothing new. There is a moral conflict here. The lobby is not being tolerant of others beliefs.

I am not saying that this will be the inevitable outcome if Soul-farce had their way with all Christian colleges... I am also not saying that Soul-farce would advocate the sexual discrimination bill in the UK (though I would be surprised if they didn't)... the point is that there is an obvious conflict of interest and we should not deal with these issues based on the god loves everybody doctrine. Yes Jesus loves everybody. Jesus does not like it when you stick your penis into somebody else's behind though. He also doesn't like it when you make somebody feel like dirt because they don't quite fit in, or when you stifle somebody's creativity. But that doesn't mean that the only ways of dealing with the issues are the cumbaja approach vs the bigot approach. Because some might say that the homosexual lobby in the UK are bigotedly against Christians...

covenant could use a little "gay" education (as could many folks posting on this blog.) let em come up and talk to the students. sounds like a great opportunity to put some of their over priced covenant education to work. if covenant is doing its job, they should have nothing to fear. this is coming from a covenant alum.

Good to know your credentials Cannon.

Holton-

You reinforce my opinion that if I had ever gone to Covenant (would have never actually happened in a million years) I would have lived on Catacombs and that Josiah (as a former Catacombs resident) actually agrees with me that having a bunch of gay dudes on your campus is not really a big deal and might actually be fun.

There is gay subgenre here in the Northwest known as bears (I get mistaken for one all the time for my charicteristically bearish hairy face and man boobs)- think about it! Catacombs could have a bear club dance party and invite all the chubby hairy dudes from Covenant to get down to Franz Ferdinand. That has to be a pretty big demographic there.

Speaking of gay undertones, I really want to see Blades of Glory.

And we used to have a lot of Bears at my old job... very big... and very hairy... and very well you know, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Totten, I always thought of you as more of a Buffalo, mebbe a Wildabeast.

New game: If you were gay, what animal would you be?

A dog. Because all gay people love dogs.

The gay animal subcultures are actually really popular here. If I were actually a bear I would actually be called a cub because I'm young. If I lost the gut I would be considered an otter (a skinny hairy gay dude). I know a gay guy who looks like an eagle.

I would be a wombat. For reasons that need no explanation.

Snapping turtle.

Soulforce visited us at Dordt and I think it went fairly well We decided to let them come but our agreement did not give them access to our dorms or classrooms. I suspect we showed that we did not fit their stereotype of what christians. Will be remembering you folks in prayer. One of my sisters went to Covenant

A Dordt biology prof.