Excerpts On "The Church"

The problem is that with most pastors and with what we've had recently is that we're not doing ANYTHING (including those three) right now. I'd love a pastor that did all three of those things but I'd settle for as Pastor well versed in just one (since its so rare to find a pastor who even thinks about "preaching" in this manner of abstraction/analysis).

Seriously, I'm going to be blunt: the average pastor I've met isn't an intelligent individual (intellectually or ministerially). But I'm arrogant like that & have rather high expectations for Pastors and/or Elders. Sometimes, on occasion, they'll have some life experience/wisdom but that doesn't mean they're willing to translate that into their ministry; usually those folks keep towing the lukewarm status quo. It's really quite stunning. That's what happens though when the ----- ------- of the world go off to be ministers. It's an embarassing testament to the manner in which the Protestant Church goes about finding its ministers.

It all stems from, in my opinion, from that fundamentally flawed pastor-generating setup. Some cat who's into theology up and decides he's got a call to go to seminary. They get a little more theology from some myopic institution like Mid-American, Greenville, or Westminster West and suddenly feel like they've got it all figured out (not that other institutions are less myopic).

They then accept the call from some small Reformed/Presbyterian church and proceed to poorly preach to and care for that congregation. Then they spend the rest of their pastoral "career" hopping around from church to church every 5-10 years which then (along with their consistent theological posturing) functions as the model for the next generation of kids who get into theology and think they're cut out for the ministry.

It's a messed up situation. People who go into the ministry OUGHT to be picked by the church/elders. When they (the church/session) notice an elder/deacon/church member with the gifts to go into the ministry they should be shepherded in that direction. Right now the Pastorate is being approached purely in an individualistic and vocational fashion. It should come as no surprise to us that our Pastor will up and leave if he feels like/wants to go elsewhere. Remember: its how we got him in the first place.

My question is: when did we get so complacent about the Pastorate? Why on earth is the way we're doing it now "ok"? Am I wrong for thinking there is something better and expecting it?

As far as I can tell, at this point, the average Reformed/Presbyterian denomination & church is exceptional in nothing but its stunning and viciously pursued mediocrity.

The hard part - at least, the part that keeps me up at night - is figuring out how to work in and with the world _as it is_ while working toward something better.

Idealism has to bear fruit in real, concrete local communities and relationships, else it's just so much hot air.

Just a few thoughts. 1. This is God's church, not man's. As such, I have full confidence that He will get the right men in place to lead it regardless of the system that man erects so that our eyes can see those He's chosen.

2. It sounds like you're saying that most men in the pulpit don't have the ability to do the job right (as you want it done). You come to this conclusion based on the quality of the pastor's weekly sermon and maybe the programs he leads in the church. Essentially, you're looking at the product and saying that there is only one reason it's deficient...they're not the right man for the job (as if they've reached their full potential). Perhaps the reason that most pastors appear to be somewhat lackluster in the quality of their work is not b/c they don't have the ability or are the right people, but b/c they're burned out. You mention the pastors in the small churches, the very same pastors who are on call 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, and if they get/take vacation time they probably don't have the money to go anywhere and therefore are still on call if anyone needs them. In most churches, if the pastor doesn't do it, it doesn't get done...he runs everything. I might buy into your reasoning if the only duty of a pastor was to preach, but in reality that's proabably only 1/10th of what he does.

Sure, maybe we can improve the system of obtaining and retaining pastors, perhaps move to a system like the Catholic church. But, I think your complaints fall at the bottom of the list of culprits as to why the sermons you hear don't do it for you.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I seriously think you ought to re-evaluate your sentiments here. It's hard work being a pastor, and the guy probably just needs your unconditional support and not your public blasting of him on your blog. I'd be disgusted if you slammed April like this on your blog, but that is the equivalent of what you're doing when you lay into your church like this.

Timmy/Scott,

Agree with you who God wants will end up in the pulpit. Doesn't mean he wont be incompetent. God's sovereign over the good and the bad, which doesn't make them any more good or any less bad.

Further, I come to the conclusion based on the quality in which ministers (in my limited experience) shepherd the flock. I agree with you that pastors dont' have adequate help from their session. There's probablems all over the place with the way we do things. This was, after all, just an excerpt. I could go on for days.

But no, doesn't have a whole lot to do with the sermons. To be frank my previous pastor who I loved preached what I found to be somewhat lackluster sermons. I loved him dearly and he cared for April & I to the point of great personal sacrifice. Was very helpful in encouraging me to not approach worship on Sunday like a consumer.

But then again, you reach a certain point in "dont' approach the church like a consumer" where after awhile it gets old and you just want to say "this is ridiculous and at a certain point has little to do with Christ". Like, where and when is the forum for concerns?

Finally, Scott, we don't currently have a pastor.

Ahh, I missed that somehow. I thought you were describing a perceived failure in your current church.

thanks for being more specific in the problem you're addressing, it is somewhat different than was described in the little blurp (what a great word) to which I responded. So, you're talking about sheparding the flock. In order to continue we need to define "sheparding", however, I fear that to ask for such an expansive definition doesn't suit this medium. Using my own characterization, I can understand the thought that men get out of seminary and are just cast to the wolves (which many churches seem to be...especially if they're looking for a new pastor) w/ no older, wiser, senior pastor to mentor them on a daily basis, teaching the younger pastors all he has learned and what he was taught by the guy who mentored him. This lack of sheparding maturity is evident in many small churches when you consider that each generation of pastor starts off at zero rather than gaining a few points from lessons the previous pastor learned. Anyhow, perhaps we should continue when I get back to chatt (I hate contining discussion like this on blogs, it takes too much time and isn't as enjoyable), maybe around a table with a few bottles of wine and some handguns.

Josiah, good thoughts. But I think you know as I do that a discussion like this tends to downward spiral until we just unearth more and more frustrations with "the Church today" and with "pastors today" that we just cannot solve. At one point we have to stop being frustrated with abstractions (one thing that happens to you and me a lot) and we have to focus on the particular. We have to focus on where our obedience to Christ is lacking in our own life and where the obedience of Christ is lacking in our own local church and work on that. Weakness in the church has been a problem since day one. The church has always been weak, because God likes to work with weak people, to show His power. As you know, the "glory days" are never really what we make them out to be.

Hmmm, I wonder what I'm suppose to think about your comments? I was your pastor longer than anyone - 20 + years (does being your dad negate your criticism). It's okay, I still love you dude. But you seriously need to chill and put a lot more energy into loving people, especially those who are failing and, or mediocre. 1 Cor. 13!!!!!

Heh, I wondered if you thought some of my thoughts would apply to you, but they don't. At least not in any sort of direct/critical fashion or anything. I do draw off the experience for my thinking about pastors/thepastorate. Most of my stuff has to do with churches visited, pastors met, heard speak, etc.

It's a risky thing, having public frustrations with pastors. I say its about even money I do a big "take back" in a few years.