New Lakewood Church Opens

But, Josiah, Joel has a message of hope.

Splitting along theological lines??? What is this heresy you're talking about?

Churches are supposed to split over things like carpet color and whether or not elders can drink.

Or haven't you been paying attention?

Stephen, I go to a presbyterian church, we split over more abstract things. And Bill, I aint knocking it.

That's too bad.

Oh c'mon Bill, I don't knock you for being a Baptist, you don't know me for being a Presbyterian, why knock these guys for having a freaking huge church?

Apples and Oranges.

ok that doesn't make any sense

Josiah:
Why not buy a stadium in South Carolina. If the whole www.christianexodus.org thing pans out, they are gonna need a big ass church!

You're kinda right. I was in a hurry (headed out the door) and wasn't able to finish my thought -- though they are actually wholly different topics for discussion.

In my opinion, simply having a big church doesn't necessarily denote anything. It could be good. It could be bad. Thus, it's what's going on in that church that needs to be looked at. (I've actually been studying Mr. Osteen a bit over the last week.)

What I see (his services are often broadcast on cable) in Mr. Osteen's church is a trend common in many big churches: people using God to get what THEY want for their lives instead of submitting their lives TO God in order to do HIS WILL for their lives. An dpastor's encouraging (and profiting from) it. Is the difference subtle? Very much so. It was kind of tongue in cheek, but the post I made on my blog alluded to it: preachers are taking the lead from self-help gurus and psychology -- and not Jesus -- to reach out to people; to give the people what they want. Not what Jesus wants.

The size of the church is suspect because in the last days there are supposed to be fewer saved people on Earth. As scripture convicts or enrages people, they will be less likely to WANT to believe or attend church -- any church -- and will instead gravitate towards places and teaching that makes them feel good.

(2 Tim 4:3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears...

That's why, when on CNN with his wife last week, Osteen deflected questions about critics of his ministry by saying that they have a message of hope; that people are happy at his church; that everything is wonderful; that people are becoming "champions" there. He's preaching a watered down, incomplete message. The part that he's leaving out (because it would hurt his attendance and the "blessings" his church has received) is the fact that being a Christian is NOT always fun and games. That it IS serious. That it IS often hard.

And people don't want to hear that. And the ones that do are small in number.

...and you'd think for $95 million they could hang ONE CROSS somewhere -- anywhere -- in that place.

cynics anonymous sent this in:
spending money on real estate instead of programs that help and touch lives in real ways outside of the church doors is central to what is wrong with christianity / organized religion today. and getting worse.

But Bill, how can you really know what's going on in that church? I mean, don'tcha think its a little hard to pass judgement on a church 900 miles way, that you haven't visited, where you aren't part of the body there? I mean, consider this (scroll down and read the comments).

Further, don't you think its a little hard to say that the folks in Mr. Osteens are just "using God to get what they want"? I mean, I'm sure some people in the church are doing that, but are all of them? are most of them? Is it any different from yours or my church? How many of us are just using to get what we want? It may look different in our churches (some want to feel moral superiority, theological supremacy, etc.).

And how do you know that Joel Osteen is getting the gospel from self-help guru's? Just 'cause the covers of their books or the tone of their messages look similar? People claim fundamentalist Christians are just as evil as Muslim fundamentalists 'cause they look the same, but we think they're different. I'm not sure how Joel's similarity to self-help guru's necessarily makes him wrong.

And isn't the Gospel a message of hope? Even though I disagree with you pretty strongly that Scripture teaches that there will be fewer Christians as time moves on (which is a relatively new position historically on the "end times"; most of the Church has thought otherwise for the last 2K years), why think that just 'cause Joel gets some of it wrong, or misses part of it, that it makes the whole thing he does somehow wrong? I certainly don't think I or my church has got it all right (and I'm inclined to think the same thing about your church and you; we are all sinners after all).

And isn't the very idea of a message a hope based on the idea that life is hard, that there is sin and ugliness, that people have struggles etc.? Isn't Joel just preaching the answer to those problems? It seems that if he were just preaching fun and games, he wouldn't be preaching a message of hope, he'd be preaching a message of acting like nothing is wrong, when it fact it seems he's doing just the opposite and preaching the answer to the problems.

And Bill, don't you think its a little unfair to get on him for not having more crosses in his church? I'm not sure where it says anywhere in the Bible you've got to have crosses all over your sanctuary. There's no crosses in my church (though I'd like them) and we're about as Bible believing as they come.

Ok, man. Whatever. All churches are super keen.
How dare I criticize. Go on. Do whatever.

Bill, I'm not asking you not to criticise (you know I'm just as big a fan of criticism as you are), I'm just asking you to clarify / explain yourself.

From what you told me to read:

"As far as preaching goes, Joel keeps it pretty light, and it has a broad appeal,"

...Like I said he does. My contention: he keeps it light TO keep it broadly appealing.

"so you won't get into any truly serious doctrinal issues,"

...but what if you want to? The Bible has a lot more to say than Joel Osteen or any other preacher will let it say in their services.

"and it borders at times on 'name-it, claim-it'"

...bordering on this type of preaching echoes my earlier comments about you using God and God not using you.

"but he preaches a message of hope through the Gospel"

...but what IS that message exactly? More about what YOU want and not God.

"and the work that they do is unbelievable (especially to the poor and downtrodden)."

People will spend millions of dollars (like Osteen did on a building), go halfway around the world to help people and try to fix their problems, feed them, etc. but won't tell them about Jesus. Sure, we can feed people. Once. Twice. A hundred times. But we can't feed them forever. Only JESUS promises to always meet their needs.

But Bill, what's wrong with Joel being primarily evangelistic in his message, like Billy Graham? I've always thought Billy Graham didn't have a great deal of depth, but he got the most important thing: the central message of the Gospel? I'm not saying Joel isn't wrong for not getting more "meat", but I don't think he's wrong for preaching the heart of the Gospel either.

And how do you know Joel wont let people talk about stuff of more depth? Isn't that a bit presumptuous? It's as if you're assuming bad intentions & motives.

And don't you think that Christ and the Bible has some very important things for you to consider? Whether you're talking about sin or how to overcome it, the assumption in that conversation/message about Christ is that its being spoken to somebody? I mean, isn't Joel just assuming an audience for the Gospel? Its not as if Christ wasn't preaching TO somebody. So in some sense the Gospel has something to do with people.

And finally, is Joel not preaching the Gospel when his church gives millions upon millions of dollars of year helping the poor & the widow? I mean that very particular, how do you know that Joel isn't, along with feeding the starving, preaching the Gospel along with caring for their needs? Scripture seems pretty clear that they're called to care for the poor, the widow, the fatherless, my question is how do you know they aren't preaching the gospel when obeying that command?

fellas - what are your true expectations for any real depth in an arena-rock church hall? i mean really. call it opiate of the masses - call it divine pass time - call it worship if you must. the definition of worship itself and any discussion on Osteen's intentions are subjective anymore. why are so many christians becoming so unglued all of a sudden? hmmm... do they smell the delusional and tantalizing scent of lawmaking power? ever since Bush landed the religious right in what is now a case-study political strategy, the self importance of that "target market" has gone off the meter. no it didn't start with W, at all. but the disease is compounding expodentially twice.

thanks for putting up my bad attitude. i enjoy reading your feisty discourse on this matter and it gets me thinking these kinds of things. save me?

But Mary, how do you know their worship isn't sincere? Don't you think its a bit unfair to simply think their numbers is a result of some massive political power grab? Certainly mega-churches have been around for some time, and certainly churches have always, at some point or another, played some central social networking role for powers structures (see: lookout mtn. pres, signal mtn. pres, Thankful Episcopal), but that doesn't mean everyone is simply there to boost their social stature, does it? Don't you think that's reflects a fairly dark view of people, in particular those who attend church?

I mean, c'mon, we have a good mutual aquaintance who we respect a great deal who attends a local St. Elmo church, and certainly we don't think SHE just attends Thankful just to get a good doping. I'm inclined to believe that people do do things for good reasons with good intentions sometimes.

When I hear the words, "saved by the blood of Christ" come out of his mouth, I'll change my tune. I haven't yet.

I don't think you're responding to what I actually said. Your third paragraph just completely confuses me. I THINK I agree, but I'm not sure as I'm not sure I was even arguing that point.

You're right, I don't KNOW that Joel is/isn't preaching the gospel when distributing aid. I would venture to guess, however, that he's not when he's not even DOING IT IN HIS CHURCH.

Have you WATCHED him? Seriously. You need to WATCH him before we go further with this.

What is the CENTRAL MESSAGE of the gospel in your eyes?

Bottom line:

You and I will continue to hold fast to what we both each believe. I don't think either of us will ever come around to each other's way of thinking concerning scripture. We are always going to differ on certain points. You're a Presbyterian. I'm a Christian who happens to attend a Baptist church because I'm drawn to the preaching. We believe different things.

You espouse reformed theology and have no use for dispensationalism (which I espouse) and have openly mocked the type of Bible (The Scofield) that I study from on your blog.

Because many people within Chattablogs share your religious and educational upbringing, people like me tend to tire/shy away from long, drawn out debates over scripture. We are outnumbered within this very pronounced Presbyterian-friendly bubble.

Thankfully, neither of us have to answer to each other when all is said and done.

I've seen enough. I think Mr. Osteen's ministry is among the grandest forms of apostasy on the planet. You don't. But frankly, I don't care, nor do I care to debate it any longer. I will never agree with you on this, but will continue to value the tone of our personal relationship by not remaining divisive about it.

Bill, "saved by the blood of Christ" is a very Biblical statement, but it isn't a quote from the Bible. Don't you think its possible to say the same thing, just in a different way? As in "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved?" or "ask Jesus Christ to forgive you for your sins and believe in Him"? or any number of other statements? Isn't that the central message of the Gospel, that we're sinners in need of saving? Isn't that as message of hope? Isn't that the message that Joel preaches? (btw, I've watched his sermons online and have his book, "Your Best Life Now", was given to me as a gift).

And don't you think you're being a bit cynical and unnecessarily negative by assuming that he isn't preacing the Gospel when he cares for people? I mean, he's certainly doing it because the Bible tells him to do it.

What I meant by the third paragraph was that Joel's specific message to people isn't something that Christ didn't do. i.e. Christ preached a message to people, about their sin, about their suffering, about their broken relationship to God. I think its unfair to accuse Joel of being "too much about people" when the very message of the Gospel is something that is preached TO people.

My final response:

Yes, my word choice was simply personal preference. Trouble is, I haven't heard say mine or any of yours or anything close.

I might be guilty of being a bit cynical. I'll take my chances.

And finally, Joel is letting the comfort level (and their wallets) dictate what message he's going to preach.

Seriously, I'm done.

josiah - i am not making THAT broad of a generalization as to say that ANYONE who attends or leads church is doing so for some bad reason.

nor am i saying that arena-rock boy wants to run the government.

he makes people feel good and if he's not taking advantage of anyone for his own personal benefit - getting greedy, taking too much - then no harm no foul. i don't know about much about the evanga-tainment industry.

yes i go a bit dark on this subject of building bigger super churches and generating more revenue than compassion while feeding the wheel of commerce more than the wheel of kindness as priority one. i don't say anything about church-goers.

i'd rather talk about church-doers. real people who genuinely live their faith, are the church, and get more done in the name of God in steady, quiet but profound ways - than many larger and superlarger amplified "congregations."

Bill, I think you're overestimating the extent to which you and I disagree on this one. I haven't actually stated my opinion on Joel Osteen, his ministry, or Lakewood Church.

I also think you overestimate the extent to which I espouse Reformed theology. If you note this post, I actually spend the substance of my post mocking the Reformed/Presbyterian churc, and not Lakewood, which I'm sure is somewhat bizarre given that most Reformed & Presbyterian folks would also feel that Lakewood is one of the grandest forms of apostasy on the planet.

You should also note that the only part where I actually disagreed with you on something Scriptural was where you mentioned there being fewer and fewer Christians towards the "end of time", and even then my point wasn't to disagree, but to point out that there has been a diversity of views on the matter for some time.

And finally, I apologize for mocking you/The Scofield Bible. I would and have argued just as vehemently for a value of the dispensationalist slice of the Christian pie to my more vitriolic Reformed aquaintances as I have here (indirectly) for the value of Osteen & the "name it claim it" camp.

My belief (and its one of the few I hold firmly) is that the work of The Holy Spirit in the Body is an incredibly diverse thing, and that the Lord builds His Church as He sees fit. What I do think is that we're all prone (as I believe you mentioned elsewhere recently) to writing off our brothers and sisters too quickly and unecessarily, and that our real responsibility is understanding each others roles underneath The Head.

I'm not sure that's a particularly Reformed position, at least, my experience in the Reformed and Presbyterian slice of the Church up until this point hasn't brought me into too many people who felt or lived that way. Most of the time is spent dividing.

The Bible is also a divider, not a uniter.

You can look it up. :)

Mary, don't you think you're being needlessly cynical about Joel or the mega churches aka calling them "arena-rock boy". I mean its funny, from a certain standpoint, but I can't see how its condusive to compassion or generally living our Faith (which you and I both agree is the point).

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about voicing the concerns, but just 'cause someone is big n' popular doesn't necessarily mean that he's just lining his pockets, or that the church isn't, in fact, doing some really caring and compassionate stuff helping people. Here's one example from a friend of mine (scroll down to read the comments).

Right now I find it fascinating how quick we all are (myself included) to believe the worst about people. If you read that link I just posted, my question to my friend Nick was obviously cynical about Joel Osteen, and I wanted to know the dirt. Problem is, thus far, to date, there hasn't been much dirt to dig up. My question is, why was I cynical first? Where's that good ol' American (and good) "innocent until proven guilty"? Maybe we've all been programmed to believe that the Jim & Tammy Faye Bakers of the world are every religious leader.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we're not all hypocrites. We are. I am. But why don't we believe in more? Its not as if flawed people aren't doing good all the time.

Bill its a stumbling block, and to those outside The Church. Question is: why are we the ones insisting on all the divisions when the others aren't?

I'm not insisting on division. Neither are you. I'm just trying to live according to my faith, which is, by definition, different from you living according to your faith if our faiths are somewhat different.

ALL HAIL THE POWER OF JOEL OSTEEN
(To the tune of: All Hail The Power of Jesus' Name)

All hail the power of Joel Osteen
He's not our foe at all
Remove fears of apostasy
And play some basketball

Ye of the Compaq Arena
a former worldly hall
Hail him who touts arena-rock-style hope
And play some basketball

Oh that with yonder Houston throng
We at his church may stall
To join a modern Christian game
And play some basketball

Josiah: I can't believe you're going to bat for something like this? Sure, you're frustrated with the hide-bound, legalistic, parochial OPC, but come on.

Sincerity is a necessary componant of true worship, but it is not sufficient. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm with bill on this one. I'm sure that most of the people at Lakewood Church - just like most of the people at the megachurch in which I grew up - are decent people, most of whom genuinely love Jesus. As far as I'm concerned, that isn't subject to debate. But that doesn't stop their neglect for the things of God from impoverishing their lives and souls. "Discover the champion in you"? I always thought the point was to discover the champion that is Christ.

I also can't really justify churches larger than a few hundred people. You of all people, you who tend to take things like community seriously enough to want to design urban spaces around the idea, should see the problems inherent in a church that big.

The fact that there is good being done at Lakewood by genuine believers who love the Lord is something I will grant without qualification. But that doesn't mean I have to think what they're doing is helpful or right.

Ryan, why do you think you need to justify churches that big? I mean you, personally, why do you think you need to justify their existence? They're not asking you to justify your churches existence.

And while the point is to discover the Champion that is Christ, why think that 'cause they get some things wrong that its any different from us having things dreadfully wrong in our theology, or that it makes their souls any more impoverished than hours? And further, what does it get you to point out/show/examine/anathematize Lakewood?

I'm not sure how you can say "there is good being done at Lakewood" and can then say "I don't have to think what they're diong is helpful or right"? That doesn't make too much sense.

and an aside: in denser neighborhoods I don't see how a church like Lakewood is something incompatible with good neighborhood planning. Its analogically no different (in building structure) than a big concert hall, an opera house, etc. Its all about how its designed and integrated with the rest of the community.

there's an interesting article in the most recent issue of relevant magazine about the church's focus. should it be to spent as much money as it would cost to feed the whole world on church upgrades?

well, that's what we've done.

just me thinking out loud about an article i read.

if anyone wants it, go look in the bookstore. or ask me if you know me and i'll get it to you.

it seems to me that we should spend at least as much time and energy praying/thinking/acting on our own faithfulness as we do for that of others. if not more.

Well, I just hope this church is part of the interfaith hospitality network, they could house the WHOLE homeless community of texas in there.
For those of you who aren't familiar, the interfaith hospitality network is a network of churches (ironically the older and smaller churches mainly) that open their doors for a week on a rotating basis to house families moving through a program to gain permenent housing. The families must follow rules and guidelines in order to be a part of this program and follow the advice of a case manager. Volunteers stay at the church with the families and assist with preparing meals and the children's lunches. I have found that it is mostly, as I stated, the smaller and older churches who are willing to open up their churches. I was part of a search committee to find more churches to be involved in this program because we needed to start a second group as the need increased. You would not believe how many churches turned us down because they didn't want homeless people in their church. Afraid their pristene building might get damaged or tarnished somehow.

I don't know you Naut... but you made the best point yet. Send IHN and the Houston church an email, we might be surprised by the outcome.

Mary made some good points earlers as well. True, buildings for the sake of buildings are vain and a waste of effort and resources. But when used to good end (IHN for example) their value can be realized. One reason St. Elmo Pres. is looking to repair/expand the back section is so we can house IHN. While we'll miss traveling to other churches to help out, our congregation would like to add to the number of places IHN can happen.

lakewood opened on July 3rd...same week on July 8th in Istanbul, Turkey a sheep herder who had stopped to have breakfast while his sheep were grazing was in shock after a single sheep walked off a nearby cliff and then about 1,500 followed....do you think these two stories may have somthing common between them...all these "sheep" following eachother....I gues the least your can get out of it is: the size of the flock dosn't matter....